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Chandler Riggs (Old)

Discussion in 'Chandler Riggs' started by SliceyDicey, Jan 25, 2014.

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  1. Mangel2000

    Mangel2000 Tracker

    Thanks, I didnt know that.
    And yes. Agreed. But it’s a good spin off at least to me.
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  2. ndtuser

    ndtuser Bowman

    I don't know, part of me just doesn't buy all this "last minute" BS line they've been shoveling. I mean Jadis was introduced in season 7 and a helipad was visible when Rick was standing on top of the trash heap. And also, what episode in season 8 did Rick see the helicopter? Wasn't that filmed before for comic con. And lastly, in the vision in 8.01, Carl is very deliberately kept off camera, as if foreshadowing his death. Now that of course could have been edited that way after the decision to kill Carl had been made and before the episode aired, but I'm just not so sure.
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  3. Niolle

    Niolle Ringleader

    Andy said it, i don't think he lied... But you're right, Jadis and helicopter were there only for Rick's story.

    True, but they were going to kill both Carl and Rick (in 8.09 and in 8.16).
    Axel likes this.
  4. ndtuser

    ndtuser Bowman

    I don't think Andy was lying, because maybe he thought his character was going to die, but I do think Gimple had a plan all along to keep Rick alive and he planned on killing Carl before season 8 started, just my opinion, and he just never let any of the actors in on his plan. Then if Andy didn't agree to continue with the movies, then he could always have Rick die under the tree, but obviously TPTB wanted the movies desperately and negotiated with Andy to get them. I just don't buy Gimple's BS that the decision to kill Carl was "last minute", despite what he told Chandler.
    sister and Niolle like this.
  5. Niolle

    Niolle Ringleader

    Yeah, Gimple lies all the time. He even lied to Andy when he asked why Rick is crying in 8.01 (when they were filming 8.01).
    xyzw1234 and sister like this.
  6. Leafy

    Leafy Bowman

    I'm pretty sure what Niolle means (at least how I'm understanding it) there is that Angela is planning for Maggie's return, but Angela has no absolute guarantee that Lauren will return. In other words, in S8, Gimple was willing to lose Carl while already knowing Andy was leaving. As is, he almost left in S8 and there was a backup plan for that (him dying against the tree was confirmed to be that backup). They must have known Danai had other things going on and that they might lose her, and surely they understood the meaning of Rick and Carl to her character, but despite knowing Andy was leaving, they killed off Carl anyway.
    The thing about Maggie is more that Angela should not be writing S10 "only one way". No matter what, things happen in life. Lauren can't be guaranteed to be available. God forbid anything happens to her and she's injured and can't film, they still need a backup for that. If she has a family emergency and can't film, they need to have a backup for that. Basically, choosing to write the story with Maggie in it because you're so certain her actress will return is a terrible way to write something, and especially for a show so massive that there's no way you can just recast such a massive character. Even Gimple had backup plans for irl possibilities.

    I really hope not all three movies will be about Rick trying to find his family. That's just repetitive and meaningless. I believe it was confirmed that the first movie will be covering the six year timeskip, but I could be wrong about that confirmation.

    I do agree though that in the event he's looking for his family in those movies, killing off Carl was just stupid. That's the one main person he'd truly want to reunite with. That would be the happiest possible outcome for Rick, and while I understand this show is not usually happy, there's no point in a show that's purely upsetting and full of grief. Viewers want some hope for their characters. Carl would have been that hope for Rick. The belief that even though Rick couldn't be there to protect him that he was still alive and he would see him again someday. Most people don't want to watch a show that has no hope and is just totally depressing.
    You're right that it kind of ruins the movies - at least the hope in it. Now that Michonne is leaving the show too, if she doesn't go to the movies, that's another hope now smothered for Rick that we know of. At this rate, Daryl is going to be his last hope of very emotional and impactful reunion.

    If they had killed off Rick against Negan, I think it's also that they couldn't really find a way out of Negan having to die. Like, Carl, Michonne and Daryl would have stopped at nothing to see him dead. It seems like he had no plan on how to keep Negan alive with anything that would make sense except him totally taking over and winning the war and killing all major opposition (basically our central group). Even if they had already written Carl out by the time Rick died, the result is the same. Nobody would have let Negan live, or everyone would have to be wiped out. Simon Was Right.
    Andy also decided later into filming that he wasn't ready to leave yet, so they wound up flipping it all into "haha just kidding it was all leading up to him losing Carl, not him dying". It's likely the scene of him crying was in the event that they did decide to kill Carl, so it might have been a consideration the entire time, or it might have been used for a teaser of possible futures. From what happened between Chandler and Gimple though, it sounds more like Gimple hadn't totally cemented the idea yet until 8x06, and maybe he did it because he planned to remove the Grimes family in the same season before the timeskip. But from that, if they got rid of Carl because they planned for Rick dying, Rick surviving invalidates that concept and now Gimple is left with a whole mess of problems. Makes me wonder if he actually realized afterward how much of a mistake it was to kill Carl off before Rick in that case and just doesn't want to admit it. Like, if he felt he didn't want Carl without Rick, then he might've killed Carl because of Andy leaving, but then Andy decided not to leave.
    But honestly? They killed off Dale even though Jeff changed his mind late into production. I get that Andy's been around longer, it's a different showrunner and he's the central character for the show, but how far into production were they planning to kill off Rick before they totally turned the concept upside down?

    The whole helicopter thing was ridiculous to me. I guess if they want to go by the concept that he's been captured by another group I can be okay with that, but it's how they want about it that bothers me. I do understand they probably needed him to seem dead to the other characters so those characters could move on to another storyline and not be constantly looking for him (like, I get it for storytelling purposes and moving the story forward), but I still feel like that particular sendoff was... sloppily handled. It was probably better than Gimple could've done, but I'm still not a fan of it.

    TL;DR killing Carl was a mistake and the show is feelin' it. : )
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  7. Niolle

    Niolle Ringleader

    Yeah, exactly.
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 23, 2019, Original Post Date: Feb 23, 2019 ---
    They used Carl to keep Negan alive and then used Rick to respect Carl wishes to keep Negan alive, but after Carl's death and Rick's exit and Lauren's exit there's no one who cares about Negan being alive :hilarious:
    It's so funny, Negan had a story with Rick, Carl, Dwight and Maggie. No one else. And now he absolutely useless as a character.

    If they wanted to keep Negan alive and important, they absolutely needed Carl for that. They could have written Carl as someone who enjoys seeing Negan suffer and rot in the cell (without all these pacifist Carl bullshit).
    They could have even kept Negan/Judith talks. Little sister feels sorry for Negan, big brother wants Negan to spend the rest of his life in that cell, Negan wants to show Carl that he's changed and he returns to the cell on his own free will after Judith lets him out... An arc like this would have been better than what they're doing with Negan now.
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  8. ndtuser

    ndtuser Bowman

    Yeah, I forgot about that, proving again that Gimple knew before the start of season 8 that he was going to kill Carl.
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 23, 2019, Original Post Date: Feb 23, 2019 ---
    I think that if Andy had decided to still leave at the end of season 8, the war with the Saviors would have wrapped up an episode earlier, thereby saving Negan, and the infamous rebar injury and helicopter rescue would have happened in 8.16 instead of 9.05. Therefore Negan would not be the cause of Rick's "death" and no one would feel the need to get revenge on Negan. I am still convinced that this was Gimple's plan all along, it's just that Andy decided leaving the same season as Chandler was not a good idea, so they pushed this whole story idea back a few more episodes.
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  9. xyzw1234

    xyzw1234 Hammer Wielder

    The posts speculating why show!Carl was killed off are rather interesting, and while exact definitions differ I think it's beyond obvious that killing Carl was a very stupid call regardless of the reasoning behind it. But perhaps more attention should be paid to the subject of this thread.

    In many ways CR is probably the least similar to Gimple in mindset: articulate, media-savvy, thoughtful, humble and intelligent. I actually think there's a legit chance that Gimple considers him a threat or at the very least difficult to work with, especially if CR is as outspoken on-set as he is on Reddit (someone willing to call out their own mistakes probably wouldn't hesitate to do so to others) - I don't think he would necessarily challenge Gimple but could certainly make the latter uncomfortable. While I don't think this is the main reason why he got fired, I think it might have played a part as to why Gimple chose Carl instead of other characters to kill off to spare Negan/get Rick away/move Morgan onto FTWD.

    That said, even without considering the storytelling problems firing CR himself was probably among the worst business move they've done for a long time. With the show being in its 8th year, it would be quite reasonable to assume that most of the major cast are at least thinking of jumping ship; I haven't seen any project that even comes close to lasting an actor's entire career, and staying too long may result in typecasting or over-association with a particular role. CR was one of the very, very few major actors who were willing to outright commit to the series for a longer timespan.

    Had AMC had half a brain, CR could easily have been the spokesperson/'face' of the entire brand given that he spent a large portion of his life including his formative years working on the project; his personal identity would then have been closely linked with that of the show itself, which only plays into the network's interests (though not CR's, as TWD would end sooner or later despite what AMC's deluded execs think). Essentially he would have been similar to NR, except that his character would have far more narrative weight, has a more sustainable fanbase (as they are younger, it will take longer for them to age out of the 18-49 group assuming AMC is actually crazy enough to try running TWD for that long), and is the only major actor within his age demographic that has stayed since s1.

    AMC's main strategic error was underestimating just how popular CR was among both the audience and his co-workers, something that could have been as easily resolved as 'sending someone to WSC and doing a headcount' or taking notice of cast interactions; turns out being surrounded by an echo chamber of yes-men is not the optimal business strategy. I used to believe 'safe spaces' were just a figure of speech until I went on AMC's forums and other sites under their influence, where I was forced to (metaphorically) eat my hat.

    At any rate, AMC and Gimple have kicked the hornet's nest not only by killing off Carl, a beloved character and deuteragonist of the series, but backstabbing Chandler, a beloved actor and one of the 'symbols' of the cast particularly among younger fans.

    Far, far too late. They've pretty much exhausted the public's goodwill. The general public is far less forgiving than this forum - they don't like something, they just move on.

    A picture says a thousand words. Suffice to say that the series' fate, including those spinoffs they will attempt in a few years would likely be very different had this not happened:


    Note that the Carl spoiler leaked just after s8e1 and was increasingly well-known as it spread like wildfire across the Internet. Even if you don't google 'TWD" online, IIRC several major conventional publications covered the spoilers and there's also word-of-mouth.

    The black line is a linear projection based on pre-s8e1 data. Obviously it won't fit exactly even if Carl weren't offed, but it's a good starting point to hypothesise where the show could have been.
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2019
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  10. Niolle

    Niolle Ringleader

    Not only Gimple. It seems all AMC employees are like Gimple - especially their twitter person. He (or she) clearly didn't like Chandler and ignored him and his success.
    The crew and the cast loved Chandler, producers and writers and AMC social media didn't. I wonder why.
    Axel and nadkathegreat like this.
  11. xyzw1234

    xyzw1234 Hammer Wielder

    Again, exceptional stupidity in addressing market demand. TWD is still financially successful, but the only reason it is, would be due to the massive success from s1 to s5. The network is essentially burning its reserves from that period and had the show started with s8 quality I don't think it would even have had an s2.

    Considering how AMC treats the rest of the cast I don't think you even need to wonder. This is a systematic problem instead of an isolated one.
    Axel, nadkathegreat and Niolle like this.
  12. Niolle

    Niolle Ringleader

    It's so ironic that almost all the people who made this show great (in earlier seasons) are now gone - Darabont, Mazzara (yeah i know lots of people hated season 3 but he did a good job of making people care about the characters), the whole cast of seasons 1-3 (except Carol and Daryl).

    But AMC is convinced that this show is popular because of

    1) walkers and Nicotero
    2) Daryl

    They still don't understand why people loved the show.
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  13. clems94

    clems94 Bowman

    It's too late, they can't save the show for me, Carl is dead and Rick is gone. The series will never have the end it should have.I would have liked TWD to be one of those series you like to watch again, even if you know the end. But that will never be the case, the series has no end in sight, and even though the dialogues are better this season, I don't care about Tara, Carol, Ezekiel, Daryl, Lydia, Henry, Magma, Alden ....I loved the Grimes family.

    AMC thinks that Henry and Carol or Daryl and Lydia or Michonne and Judith can replace Rick and Carl. But for me it does not work.
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  14. xyzw1234

    xyzw1234 Hammer Wielder

    As far as I am concerned TWD ended with s6e9 finale with a few additional special episodes afterwards. s5e11 also works I think

    Perhaps give it a bit of time, maybe at least a year, before rewatching. That is my plan.
    Axel likes this.
  15. Leafy

    Leafy Bowman

    Who knows, maybe Gimple thought being asked about Carl's motivations was challenging him/his writing. Obviously from a logical perspective it's not, but based on Gimple's attitude and behavior at all panels, TD shows and interviews, etc., he's not the type to ever think he's wrong about anything, and if he got questioned on anything then perhaps he felt it meant the actor in question was questioning his writing. It's a stretch to think that way, but based on how Gimple acts about his own writing? I can see it.

    I think unfortunately with how loud Chandler haters were about his acting, he may have seemed unpopular on media websites such as YouTube. He admitted it was because he was tired, but honestly? Considering he had to commute two hours one way whenever he was on set that day, that probably played a part too. If he was closer like with the house he'd bought, even if he had school it would help at least a little bit in his overall energy for acting. But also, he used to give it more effort. If that declined, sure, I believe him that he was exhausted and all that sometimes, but honestly? Why should he have had to give it his best when AMC never gave him their best? They pushed him off to the sidelines too often. He had no need to expend extra energy on his role half the time.
    And not for nothing, and not to be condescending of other actors, but Matt Lintz isn't that great. He's extremely monotone and bland so far. People called Chandler out for those exact same things and then some, but I have yet to see people all that aggravated with Matt's acting. Difference being, Carl probably had brain damage from his eye wound, so Chandler playing him with flat emotion actually makes complete fuckin' sense. Carl was slightly slow and slightly awkward, making impulsive and rash decisions in S7/8 (and not really around much in 6B). A lot of what he did, writing-wise and through Chandler's acting, had plenty of signs pointing to the fact that that was simply his character. People get on Chandler's case, but it's only ever him. None of the other younger actors see this much flak. None. And yet, he's the politest most genuine person I've seen among all those panels and interviews and having to deal with his character being written off so terribly and having to cope with that all again after 8x08/8x09 aired after he'd already had to deal with it when he'd lost the job. Among his age group, Chandler is an amazing person and yet he's the one who sees the most crap from the fandom and AMC. It disgusts me.

    I mean, honestly, it's the same for me. I'm not exactly forgiving about it. I'm still here for Norman/Daryl. That's it. Anyone else can die on the show and I'll hang on as long as Daryl is still around, but right now, as far as I'm concerned, Norman is their only saving grace for my viewership. Even then, I'm still harsh on the show and more critical about it than I used to be, and much less forgiving toward AMC. It's also possible they might lose the lawsuit against Frank Darabont, so... all those viewers they lost from Carl? Mmm, yeah, good luck if you lose that lawsuit now. That's budget problems right there, and that's more viewers that get tired of your crap show.

    Remember how the AMC Twitter account even tagged the wrong person on Chandler's last episode? They tagged ChadlerRiggs. That's how much they even cared.

    I mean, admittedly, I'm not a fan of Glen Mazzara. S3 wasn't my problem, but it was the really weird and dumb choices of the characters in S2. Lori is hated by a mass amount of the fandom because of S2, whereas in S1, nobody really hated her with the level of passion she gets now. But also though, I'd probably take Mazzara over Gimple - at least, under the condition Carl was still here, but Mazzara also considered killing off Carl instead of Axel, so I'm not so sure I'd feel much better with Mazzara handling minors either (and he's the one who got rid of Madison Lintz, so). Chandler was way younger back then too. Of course, I don't think he'd have handled it as inappropriately, but who knows after what happened with Andrea. He was a last minute changer too.

    Ultimately I haven't heard horror stories about Mazzara regarding this kind of stuff, so hopefully he would have been better to Chandler, but... I feel iffy. I just wish Frant Darabont had kept the show all along.

    The thing is too like... I love Daryl and Nicotero's work, definitely, but I also loved seeing stuff like the interactions we used to have with characters we no longer have, and I LOVED seeing the cast together. I've had some very hard times in the past year in my life but I would always go around looking for cast interactions and the like to feel better for a while. Chandler was a very, very big part of that. The show itself feels hollow to me now. Maybe it's because, despite that Daryl is my favorite and Carl was my second favorite, I felt a different kind of personal attachment to Carl, and Chandler not being there makes it pretty... meh. I guess also knowing what happened behind the scenes is also souring things, but... that's AMC's fault for doing it.

    It's okay, it's not working for most people tbh. AMC just likes to convince themselves it's working because they don't know how to accept failure.
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  16. voidxgrimes

    voidxgrimes Deadmeat

    it’s not even just that i loved the grimes and that i don’t care about lydia(or other characters). in the comics i find her character interesting, and i like her. if they explore her more id like it. it’s the fact that they got rid of carl, and therefore her importance to the story has dwindled.

    lydia has the potential to be a great character, but they ultimately fucked her story over by killing off carl. she doesn’t hold as much weight to the plot as her story is only connected to a character no one cares enough about.


    he doesn’t have enough development or importance to carry her story as well as his own. they had a chance to build his character up when he was first introduced, but that was 2 seasons ago. it’s getting far to late to start to develop characters like him. who’ve been around for a long time, but have done virtually nothing for the plot and held no significance until the main protagonists left.

    that was one of the problems i had with twd before they even killed off carl among other things. the inconsistency of their characters. the only people they ever developed was the main cast, and while that was all fine and good for a while, they had a whole secondary cast in the background that did nothing for 8 seasons. and when the main cast began to leave the show, they were left with all these bland, underdeveloped characters no one cared about. character who could be great, but aren’t due to the lack of material written for them. it was one of the reasons why tom payne left. because jesus had been apart of the cast since season 5, and did very little for the show.

    even if they still decided to get rid of the entire grimes family, had they done something with all the other characters just sitting around waiting, the show would have much better.
  17. Leafy

    Leafy Bowman

    I don't wanna repeat myself on this topic too much, so I'll water down what I've mentioned before.

    Basically, the Carl/Lydia storyline couldn't have happened in the show anyway. The timeskip puts Carl at ~24 years old, and Lydia at around her normal canon age of sixteen. Carl in the comics is thirteen when that storyline happens, and much of it is childlike impulse and behavior. Chandler also looks the part for being able to pull off Carl at around 24 years old. Katelyn has pulled off an older Enid very well, and I completely believe Chandler could do the same.

    I do know both Chandler and JDM wanted the Negan and Carl arc to happen, and that could have stayed and probably got manipulated a little with Judith involved. However, with Carl being too old to fit that Whisperer storyline, likely, he would have been given something completely new and different, probably closer to Daryl's story than Henry's. Henry, regardless, would have still almost definitely gotten this arc.

    What gets me is how Chandler said he felt like they would've been better off recasting Carl. I completely, sincerely do not believe that. Not only because this show can't really do recasts with characters that have been around so long under one actor, but I do believe if he was inspired enough, he could have done the job. If they gave him enough to do and made him more prominent, which would completely make sense as a now adult character, I do believe he could've pulled it off. AMC really did not give him much to be inspired about. I was getting pretty fed up with Carl's lack of lines in S7 or even appearances altogether.

    Regarding Lydia's arc, she is also connected strongly to Daryl now, which means she is in fact connected to a character most people love. Also, arguably, attaches her to the new main character.

    I don't want to get too deep into it because much of my feelings about it would go into the Carl thread, but I stand by the fact that Chandler still being on the show could've actually given us new story arcs for Carl, given him a lot to do and like was mentioned here earlier, could have really helped make Chandler more of a face of AMC. If Carl was still around, while I don't at all believe he'd be given comic Carl's story arc, imagine all the things they could do with him now? And yet here we have Gimple, the brilliant mind who fucked over TWD's future, and basically, AMC's.

    Also, Tom Payne did not leave willingly. He outright said he got the phone call and made a joke it was "the" phone call, then it was. Jesus being killed off was a writing decision. Also, Jesus has been around since season six, not five. At this point, characters like Aaron and Enid have been around for half this show's total airtime, but Jesus, not really. That's all I'm saying on that topic because it otherwise belongs in the Tom/Jesus threads.
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  18. xyzw1234

    xyzw1234 Hammer Wielder

    You probably need to be on more sites then. A quick glance of Reddit and other sites would have shown that while there weren't too many explicit criticisms of Lintz's acting, there were definitely at least a few, and it's clear that Henry is an unpopular character. The only reason why there aren't more is because people just don't care about the show anymore.

    As for Carl/CR, he was always popular in at least some demographics and both their popularities were increasing as the seasons passed. I mean sure, there are people who criticised his acting - but that's the same for Reedus too.

    Pretty much this. Good actors can't save bad scripts (I hate sand, anyone?)

    The vast majority of the crap came from AMC. And if the fandom really hated him or even disliked him, I don't think at least 20% of the audience (most likely more but harder to confirm) would have jumped ship after his character was killed off. To put things into perspective that number is larger than all US military KIA since the Revolutionary War. And this phenomenon is unprecedented in the show's history.

    TBH AMC should just wrap up "TWD" and work on Ride with Norman Reedus.

    Remember how the Henry-Lydia ship is opposed by 73% of voters on The Talking Dead? I think this is pretty much as in-your-face as it can get.
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  19. Gaga T

    Gaga T Walker Bait

    I did the same thing! The story is good and I get to see Chandler! Win win for me.
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  20. Axel

    Axel Hammer Wielder

    No Way Out works pretty well as a finale for the series, and then you could easily treat S6E10-S6E13 as a little epilogue of sorts. That's basically what I plan to do from now on, and maybe watch a select few episodes after that like Sing Me A Song or Bury Me Here

    I like S5E11 as an endpoint, but I hate to miss out on the Alexandria episodes afterwords.

    IMO, S5E10-S5E16 is one of(if not the) best and most consistently quality spans of episodes in the show.
    xyzw1234 likes this.
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